phoeny: (XIII: Neapolitan)
[personal profile] phoeny
Before I begin, there will be spoilers. I repeat, THERE WILL BE SPOILERS. ESPECIALLY FOR THE ENDING OF FINAL FANTASY XIII. I'm only focusing on the Playable Characters plus Serah.

{TL;DR MATERIAL. BUT GREAT FOR FICS!}

Also, it might be split into multiple posts, just for ease. Or until I hit that elusive character limit on LJ posts (is there even one?)

Therefore, I don't want to see [livejournal.com profile] draion here because BITCH YOU BETTER GET THIS GAME AND PLAY IT YOURSELF.

Are we all cool then? Well...let's start.

ETA:
Part II (Fang, Vanille, and Sazh) are over here.
Part III (Snow and Hope) over here.




Serah Farron...as we know is Lightning's little sister, and Snow's fiance. Ok...I dig the premise, she's the token "Damsel in Distress". While she's not part of the playable cast, she does very little, since she was crystallized in the Pulse Vestige. That means...especially for the first third of the game, Serah is the "plot driver". Without her, we wouldn't have Lightning, Snow, Sazh, and Hope becoming L'cie in the first place. That was her focus, and it definitely drives the game's plot, but more or less the game's plot is about Fang and Vanille. In short, she has all the characteristics of a minor character, but she's a load-bearing minor character, if that made any sense.

Beyond being the typical "fair lady", and plot-driver, not much else is given in canon. We know she was planning to attend Eden's University, so that implies "intelligence". She was raised by Lightning after all, so I'm sure she got used to loneliness from a very young age, and that could have affected her psyche in both positive and negative ways. She's not the typical "air-headed ditz", but she doesn't look 18 to me. I'm still figuring it out.

As for shipping tendencies/major character interactions...
Snow: This is canon. I have no "real" problem with their derpy love. However, had she not become a l'cie, I think she wouldn't have accepted his marriage offer. IDK, it kinda reeks of "first boyfriend" kind of relationship, does anyone else see it? As far as I'm concerned, Snow is her emotional outlet. Serah craves a unconditional love, that could only come from her parents. Lightning, as her sister, comes close, but not enough, especially when she's not physically there because of work. Hence, Snow with his fairy-tale brand of love was substituted instead.
This relationship could've worked had Square Enix developed it further beyond the 13 Days. While she was crystallized, we mostly saw the relationship from Snow's POV, hence why I'm iffy on the ship.

Lightning: OMG, doomed ship. Besides the whole "they're sisters, and Lightning wouldn't tap it". Lightning's her only family, for many years now. Her sister is unique and will continue to hold some place in her heart forever, because she's the only link left to her past, same goes for Lightning. More on that later. From 13 Days, Serah adores, is in awe, and yet a little bit afraid of her sister. On one hand, Serah is very attuned to what would appeal to her sister, such as getting her a spiffy survival knife on her 21st birthday. Another example is the set of matching armbands, a "tangible" link that they're related, as the armbands themselves have an interwoven design on them, signaling that the sisters' fates are linked in one way or another.
As for any romantic tendencies...Serah has Snow. If Serah were to make a move on her sister, it would probably be before game. I think in some way, it could be during puberty, when Lightning's body filled out a bit, and then Serah's going through her puberty. But just...maybe. After all, since the two lived together, presumably all their lives, they would have to conquer the Westermarck Effect which dictate incest is usually avoided when family members are brought up together from a very young age. Civilization is advanced on Cocoon, but I'm sure incest will always be a taboo. In Serah's case, if she was sexually attracted to Light, it could be because she was the "steady adult" in her life, someone she could see spending most of her life with as well as her wanting to be Light. Older sisters usually are role models, and given what Lightning had to sacrifice to make Serah happy, I'm sure Serah will be forever grateful and indebted and compensating with offers of sex.More on Farroncest later.


Vanille: Ahh yes, the infamous 9th day, in which Serah's little advice caused Vanille to finally break down in Nautilus. They haven't had much interaction besides that, but I dedicated a section to Vanille because she's the first l'cie she chanced upon. In fact, both of them are similar in that they're both hiding something and it turned out... disastrous to say the least. No Serah, by running away, you piled up all the news/drama on Lightning's b-day and you wondered why that was a great plan, how?






(Claire)Lightning Farron: AKA our sunny and bright fearless leader. With a swishy cape to boot. A BAMF during the whole course of the game, stoic soldier and...sexy as hell. She and Fang brought at least half the fandom down to their knees, it's ridiculous.

Seriously. If Light was real, I'd go lesbian. You don't even have to ask, I would get in her skirt. Just like that. Eh, she could beat the crap out of me later.

As for her character analysis, she has two personas: Lightning the Soldier and Claire the "motherly-figure". A soldier's cut for war, no emotions, no holds-barred, a very physical character; emotions are considered weaknesses. A soldier is supposed to be impenetrable, stoic and always a cool head about them. Survival of the fittest is the main priority.
The motherly-figure: attentive, sensitive to others who depend on her, nurture and guide the young, full of patience. Lightning Farron has all of these qualities, besides the stick up her ass.

Lightning Farron is foremost a soldier, then a human. We see this all the way at the beginning until...her Eidolon appeared. The first four chapters, I totally loved her. She took charge, physical badass in all sense of the phrase, and nothing could stop her from reaching her goals. Except herself. And that was apparent starting in chapter 4-5. You can even cite the scene with crystallized!Serah in Bresha. Not that I'm saying she sabotaged herself, but she did pull a Grinch and finally had a heart.
So it could be that Lightning is the shell, and Claire is the soul. They're intertwined, and the line's blurred enough by chapter 7 at the earliest not to know which is the "true" persona. Our leader is a duality. In any case, both personas are valid, as Light will never shed the "Light" persona; it's the last barrier from anybody recognizing Claire within. Not even Serah has a "true" idea of her sister; she either sees "Lightning" and think of...artificialness in terms of her "real" sister, but even then the "Claire" she knew changed. Is Lightning stuck between the two, could her true self be a balance of the two? It's quite possible.

Lightning as a mother-figure was shown in her interactions with Hope. It slowly changed from thinking him a whimpy kid, to less of a whimpy one. Still a kid though, but she vowed to not abandon him too. Which also leads me into the abandonment issues Light must have. There's a reason why her motherly figure doesn't appear unless it's with Serah or Hope. As Serah's guardian following the death of their parents, the motherly figure was protected by the soldier persona. That is why the motherly figure continues to exist, albeit muted, and less obvious, to the point where the persona stayed stagnant. It doesn't move on.

In other words, it's like its own cocoon. Protecting what's vulnerable inside, but not allowing it a chance to grow stronger. In fact, it's getting weaker. Definitely a parallel to the two worlds in the game.

Claire/Lightning is about the most vulnerable character in the game. I interpret that because she made so many mistakes, whether by not believing Serah, gave Hope Operation Nora, etc., she shut herself off emotionally from the world, and people aren't meant to isolate themselves. They feed off communication, a sense of closeness. She even said it herself: the only thing she could rely on was fighting. She tapped into her survival instinct, because she's been honing and maintaining her soldier persona for years, she has forgotten it is perfectly normal to show something besides anger. There are 5 other basic, universal emotions humans share. Claire was begging to come out again.

Shipping tendencies/Major Character interaction:

Serah: As I've touched upon on, people might have "genetic sexual attraction", meaning people look for partners most like them, and what better than family members? However, it's counteracted with the "Westermarck Effect", as defined in Serah's section. I'd like to believe that Light might've developed a "sister complex" with Serah. Her whole world revolves around Serah. When she found out Serah moved on with Snow, of course Light felt abandoned. Sisters forever, right? Then how come she felt a little betrayed?

Her sister's basically the only person she cares enough about, and if she's happy then Light is happy. So if Light was sexually attracted to Serah, it would be because Serah's the closest person to know her true self, someone to finally let the barriers down and rest, if only for a moment. The emotional and physical bond will have to be strong enough to counter "Westermarck Effect". During her time as a soldier, I would believe that the military upholds an open but somewhat conservative policy regarding same sex couples and dating. So while dating outside of work is acceptable, so is same-sex couples; the fact that it's incestuous will be taboo. Most likely, Light will not act upon her attraction. Unless Serah gets rid of Snow made it very clear to Light that she would be the happiest if Light and her went beyond a sisterly relationship. Even then, it will be difficult, as Light is supposed to be her guardian, to guide her, and she will always think it's her fault if society shunned Serah for being with her sister, because she could have prevented it.

It's a lose-lose situation for the ship, and that's why I love writing for them. The inherent angst is delicious. Because as author, I can give them a little bit of a happy ending, even if it might be for one night only. Most of my feelings towards Farroncest is in the 50 sentences I wrote. You just have to read...between the lines.

Snow: NOTHING ROMANTIC WILL COME OUT OF IT. I REFUSE TO THINK SO. And she's not his sister. XD
But Snow and her have more in common than they think. Well, Snow probably knows, and Light's in denial. Snow is Light's foil, character-wise. He's everything Light the soldier persona cannot stand in a human being. His beliefs and values are almost the opposite of hers, and she's supposed to give away her sister to him? Fat chance.

Snow is the epitome of how quick Lightning is to judge and jump to conclusions. She's trained to make snap decisions, and stand her ground with it. Besides her pride won't back down, but she eventually owns up to her mistakes. We saw it time and time again, from "I won't abandon you" to Hope, to the scene with Snow in Hope's house, to finally saying "I'm sorry" to Serah.

Both are headstrong; his strength and her speediness compliment each other well, and both acknowledge their mistakes, effectively having some character development in that regard. Eventually there will be a time that she'll accept being his sis-in-law. Like, just after post-game. Fuck you Snow, for interrupting a moment between the sisters.

Fang: You bet that Light/Fang make an awesome couple. Shit gets done when they're in a party together (Personal experience, you know XD). Fang is like a female version of a foil to Light, it's pretty interesting. And the similarities of their respective situations astound me. They both have a "little sister" to protect; you might even say they were their whole respective worlds. As such, the two will likely have mutual feelings...regarding a lot of stuff. Besides being the alphas, or trying to dominate each other, whether by sparring or verbal banter, it's all good.

With Fang, Light can be more of an androgynous character. No, I don't mean Light looks like a cross between a man and a woman. I meant it in the definition according to Sandra Bem, a psychologist famous for Bem Sex Role Inventory, which measured androgyny not by physical appearance, but by how much traditional masculine/feminine traits an individual has AKA psychological androgyny. If you looked at the traits in The Inventory, you'll see that Light scores very high on many traits. According to Bem, scoring high on both masculine traits, such as assertiveness, dominant, takes on a leader role, etc., and scoring high on feminine traits such as reliable, loyal, good with children, etc. means the person is androgynous.

I would think Fang the only one brave enough to claw through the soldier barrier into the gooey center that is Claire. IF Lightning would let her.

Hope: Ahh, the shota. With Hope, she takes more of a motherly-figure, substituting herself for Nora Estheim. To her, she sees a lot of the "old Claire" within. I'm going to explore this aspect in "Hey Soul Sister", especially anger being her first reaction to everything, stemming from her parents' deaths. In short, Hope was a lot like her, only she didn't have an adult to rely on, so in truth, she made sure that she was there for him. He'll need all the help he can get, which is why Light cannot see him as a weakling, even though that's exactly what she thought of him in the first place.
As for any...romance, she probably wouldn't even think of getting it on with Hope. Unless Light had Ephebophiliac tendencies, Light/Hope probably would never happen. I actually have another meta post all about why I can't ship Light/Hope in a romantic context, yet if they were gender-bent (Male!Light/Fem!Hope), I might be "more willing". It's basically the gender-bent parallel of the Older Man/Younger Female Protege trope commonly found in media. (For example, Phantom of the Opera/Christine <=That I ship it hard).

Vanille: This is a tricky one, since I do ship it, among others, but the interaction is hard to pull off, especially when there's not a lot to begin with. In the beginning, I think Light would've found her to be annoying, but then she found everybody annoying, so Vanille's nothing special. I would say if they had attraction towards each other , it would probably be on Gran Pulse (excuse you, Fang), where the openness of the setting makes for "invisible" character interaction, AKA "fill in the blanks as you see fit" kind of deal. Hence, why I think a lot of fics are either set, pre, post game or somewhere on Pulse. In Lightning's POV, Vanille's like "younger sister", given her similarities with Fang. But I ship Light with her biological sister, so forbidden Also, if it were Light/Vanille, only then actually, Light would be in Snow's shoes, only without the pedobearnesswith Fang as "older sis" to Vanille. YES THE PARALLELS ASTOUND ME.
More on Light/Vanille in Vanille's section.

Sazh: If Light had to pick a man, it would be Sazh. I mean, she's already good with children, and I expect nothing less from treating Dajh the same way as Hope. Just not..train them to be the next supersoldier, please. But the only way I can see this relationship working out is if it was a marriage of convenience. Light's already comfortable with Sazh, since they did travel together, all the way in the beginning, on the train. Even though Sazh could grate on her nerves, and she would have to be away from him to recover her sanity. But to Sazh's credit, he's the sane one. He knows when to run, sometimes, more than Light herself, and sometimes liking to run a little too much.

But when shit hits the fan, Sazh knows what the right thing to do. Light/Sazh is a relationship of respect. I can barely see it in a romantic context.


ARGH. WILL CONTINUE THIS. TOO TIRED RIGHT NOW, BUT FEEDBACK IS WELCOME FOR WHAT IS HERE.

ETA: Finished off the shipping tendencies for Light. Fang/Vanille/Sazh in the second part! If I can get to it. *dead*

Date: 2010-05-28 09:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
OH SHIT, A CHARACTER ANALYSIS. *geeks the hell out*

Okay. Okay.

I like the description of 'load-bearing minor character' for Serah, since this is quite accurate. She got the ball rolling for Lightning, Snow, Sahz and Hope's stories, but other than that? She was very much that token damsel in distress. I would have liked to see a lot more of who she was, other than Light's sister and Snow's fiancée. You know, see her developed outside the context of her relationships with them both.

Alas, the game's plot didn't allow for this. Crystals don't do a hell of a lot of developing, after all.

Then again, there was that crazy psychic-type connection between Snow and Serah, through the shard of her crystal. Maybe, once Snow started listening, (eg after he's picked up by the Cavalry) he and Serah might have been in contact quite a lot. This is amusing for me – if they’re sharing thoughts, Snow had better not be thinking about other ladies in the game. “Snow, please tell me you aren’t checking Fang out.”

It's kind of ambiguous, though that's how I interpreted the situation.

I'm a little... well, I think the Snow/Serah relationship is nice, but it wasn't told in a way that was convincing for me. It's a Romeo and Juliet type of scenario, but it just didn't work like that.

"It's meant to be."

Well, Snow, that's all well and good, but you didn't exactly try to convince me that you and Serah could stick together through thick and thin. You simply reiterated that it's meant to be, threw in another remark about being a hero and told us, again, that you're going to save Cocoon.

The Snow/Serah relationship is one I would have liked the game to have explored more, such as questions of infatuation vs. love, the quickness of it all, doubts. But this is also a remark on Snow's characterization (I have my own interpretations on this, but I'll leave it alone for now).

Very nice point on the Snow = love substitute for Serah, and that he was there for her emotionally when Lightning could not.

As to whether the relationship would survive... hm. Lightning was absolutely correct in questioning the relationship, given how fast it evolved. I think that Snow and Serah still need to learn a lot about each other, but when Snow does something, he goes all out.
-_-;

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a fic that details this slow learning about one another that eventually culminates in the marriage.

Onto Serah/Lightning.

I admit it, I like it when Serah totally makes Light the bitch. *innocent whistle* But that's neither here nor there.

Light does have this really twisted co-dependence thing going on with Serah, so I don't actually think that it would be a huge jump for Light to realize that, wait, she shouldn't be thinking of her sister that way.

I think you hit the nail right on the head with the original Sisterhood ending - that Lightning is so invested in 'what's best for Serah' that she probably would bury these feelings under a rock and pretend they never happened. She'd initially reject Serah's feelings, because the stigma isn't something that mother!Light wants for her sister.

...which is a total pain, because I really like Serah/Lightning. I do think, though, with the right amount of time and pushing, she might be open to the idea. In my mind it'd be pretty slow, though if the story's good enough I can be convinced otherwise.

Nice point, bringing up the Westermarck effect.

I'll comment on your thoughts on Lightning later. ;p

Date: 2010-05-28 04:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
Ok, I'm done with Light's section. Comment away!

Like I've said before, Snow/Serah first-time meeting fic has to be written, because other than that, I don't ship it, but it's ok. I do agree Serah had to be developed further than the boundaries of her relationships. Which is why my character analysis was pretty short on hers, so I made up the length by Lightning's, who is the anchor, as I've also said, to the whole group dynamic.

When I get to Snow's part, I'll definitely write more about Snow/Serah. But I can only focus on these few points, and they're not very few at all X.X

Of course, Light was correct in questioning the relationship. She only met him in Day 2, and then in Day 12 Serah said she was marrying him. Obviously Light would've flipped many shits about that, and she did.

While I like Serah topping Light, I think this relationship is "equal" as it gets, although I think Light is more dependent on Serah, than what's beyond the surface. It's kinda disturbing how much she puts Serah ahead of even her own freedom. So yes, I say Farroncest was explored pre-game, but obviously Light ended that quick or something, but the question is...
Are/Is the feelings/sexual attraction still there? Being me, I would say...YES. :3

Which is also why I adhere to the original Sisterhood ending. Even though you can probably take the Alternate Ending coming in "before" the original. Like Farroncest would be explored, but eventually Light snaps out of it and has to nip the relationship in the bud before it gets deeper. Farroncest might be hot, but there's many underlying issues in the relationship, besides it being incestuous.

(Which BTW, I'm exploring this aspect in "Hey Soul Sister". I have to.)



Edited Date: 2010-05-28 04:10 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-05-28 10:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lightningslover.livejournal.com
Awesome post, very helpful! :D

I'll try to comment later and maybe put in my two cents, if you'd like to see and discuss.

Sorry, but gotta know what exactly is the 'Westermarck effect', anyway.

Must sleep *now*, gotta open in 3 more hours! :0

Date: 2010-05-28 04:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
Finished Light's section. X.X

The Westermarck Effect is the counter to "genetic sexual attraction". In GSA, when siblings are brought up separately, then meet for the first time as adults, they're very attracted to each other mostly, partly because they didn't grow up with each other, effectively making them "strangers" and the other part is because people tend to find other people who might look like them/act like them, which family members fit the first thing. By that logic, people should have incestuous relationships, but it is avoided. How?

The Westermarck effect, which states that people growing up with each other, living with each other from a very young age(not necessarily biological family members) basically gets "imprinted" with this subconscious to avoid having any sexual relations with individuals that they grew up with. So the girl next door fantasy? Just a fantasy.

It is most likely that Light/Serah grew up together, hence if Farroncest were to happen, they would have to stomp down the Westermarck Effect that was "imprinted" on them, and that's very difficult, and might even take decades to undo, if they both plan on pursuing an incestuous relationship.
Edited Date: 2010-05-28 04:20 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-05-29 06:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lightningslover.livejournal.com
Okay, thanks! I get the overall gist of it now. Very good material to use for future fics.

Date: 2010-05-28 10:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] draion.livejournal.com
LOL, YOU BITCH, I WILL, I WILL! Sooner or later! x_x It will happen, I didn't put $5 down for nothing!

Will read the fics when I understand the material, for sure. :CRY IRFL

Date: 2010-05-29 12:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
I'M ONLY BITCHIN' AT CHU CUZ ILY. Bitch.

But this be a spoiler mineland, whatchu doin' here?

Date: 2010-05-29 02:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] draion.livejournal.com
Just saw my name, and I had to answer to the fame, bb~

But, don't worry, I'm keeping myself spoiler-free (which is like, an impossible feat) for FFXIII! Too delicious to not discover with my thumbs, eyes, and ears (and not to mention anticipating genitals; GADOT, COME TO MEEEEE)!

Date: 2010-05-29 02:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
OK THEN LITTLE MONSTER. :D

Yes, this game must be played with all senses on full alert so it can be fucked mercilessly.

Date: 2010-05-28 11:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
*yawn*

Hm, I've got work in an hour or so, so I can't comment as in-depth as I'd like, but how do you feel about Lightning/Vanille in a canon-divergence setting? As in, instead of the parties ending up as Lightning/Hope and Sahz/Vanille, Vanille was the one who ended up going with Light?

Was thinking that over a few days ago (then something to that effect creepily appeared on the kink meme and I was like "Woah"). It would definitely solve the 'little interaction' part of the equation.

More on your awesome analysis later.

Date: 2010-05-29 01:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
Ahh, I did read that prompt. If it was LV, then that would mean Sazh and Hope would be one team.

The chicken team. >.> I don't think it would work. While it would finally give the LV shippers some psychic ESP sort of "woah" there, I foresee the "Nautilus" chapter happening with Sazh and Hope though. Like to cheer Hope up, Sazh would try to go to Nautilus, and also turn himself in.

Also, that would mean Hope wasn't in Palumpolum, so Snow wouldn't know that he was Nora's son. Therefore, I would have to stick with his HEROHEROHERO banter for much later. Also, since Hope's not there, how would Light find shelter/meeting place? She doesn't know anyone from the city. Except Hope, but he would be at the Waterscape.

But what would it do to Hope's character development? He wouldn't have toughened up, because Sazh's more lenient. He'd also be crying out for Light, because Light makes miracles happen. IDK. Carried off to an extreme, Hope would have a VERY good chance of becoming Dark!Hope...and we both know we've been through this before.

Then on the other hand, what about Sazh? He wouldn't have known about how Dajh got his brand.

Light/Vanille would've traveled through Gapra, because hell no, Light does NOT want to stray off from the path to her goal. However, continuing the Sazh train of thought, would Vanille have broken down, and explained to Light how she met Serah? Does Vanille know how Serah got her brand? Cuz that's messed up either way. Light might even grow to hate Vanille.

Hmm...
Edited Date: 2010-05-29 01:05 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-05-29 06:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lightningslover.livejournal.com
Whoa, great point, especially the last one!

I was actually thinking of incorporating that last musing into my story. Umm, I've got the gist of it, like a summary and all and was maybe of thinking of having the storyline take place around maybe chapter 4. Still working on it though, I could even show it to you maybe if you like in private or something, haha.

Date: 2010-05-29 06:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
Oh I muse way too much. Feel free to gank ideas, it's basically what the point of this post was.

Now I'm curious. Love/hate relationship? PM me if you want. :3

Date: 2010-05-29 09:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lightningslover.livejournal.com
Cool.

But first, sorry I have to ask but what exactly had or does Vanille have something to do with Serah become l'Cie. I don't mind that spoiler, I'm still leveling up my characters I think in chapter 11. :(

Oh I was hoping for a love relationship, but I'm still pondering the summary and the whole gist of the story.

Date: 2010-05-29 12:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
You make it sound like 'the chicken team' is a bad thing. *laugh* No, I doubt they'd get things done, and there would be a whole stack of festering issues in the new groups.

Like you said, Lightning's example was key to Hope's manning up and becoming a braver kid. Take away that, then he has no real motivation for becoming tougher, because Sahz has enough on his mind already.

I wonder. Would Hope's moping, passive-aggressive sullenness and dreary outlook spur on Sahz's own feelings of helplessness, or would seeing a kid suffer be the kick Sahz needs to keep going, keep it together for Hope's sake? At least until Nautilus, where he gives himself in and leaves Hope alone again.

After all, without Vanille there, he'd have no reason to hesitate about turning himself in. Certainly not the 'vengence' one.

And what of Hope? After being abandoned by another parental figure (effectively making that three in recent times, if we include Bart's distantness) it could very well lead to him snapping.

I think both reactions could be written believably. Key would - could.

As for Hope's anger with Snow, I think it would have to wait 'til a lot later in the game to be resolved. He's angry and he hates Snow - but has he resolved to kill him yet? Operation Nora was something Lightning inadvertently started. Perhaps Sahz's easy-going nature didn't fuel his hatred, the way Lightning's anger did. Perhaps it made him worse.

The resolution with the Fang/Vanille/Dahj issue would have to come sooner or later - and since Sahz barely knows Vanille and Fang, would he be less inclined to forgive her?

Oh, that's some nice thoughts on the Vanille/Lightning group. If it came out that she was the reason for Serah's Focus before Lightning has her epiphany, I... actually don't want to imagine the explosion. O_o;

Actually, Vanille was damned lucky it was Sahz with her, and not a volatile and angry Lightning.

...which actually makes the Vanille/Fang/Lightning dynamic really interesting.



Date: 2010-05-29 03:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
I dunno, I had a tough time keeping Hope and Sazh's HP levels up, can you imagine those two going up against those bombs? Ugh.

That and because Hope was a wimp, Odin wasn't summoned in Vile Peaks because...well, Hope's not there. Well then. I'm sure Vanille would've played with the Dreadnought, and we still would've had some PSICOM baseball.

As for Sazh's motivation, probably try to keep it together. He always keeps it together until he turns himself in, in which case Jihl would "talk" to Hope. Ooh, and on the Palamecia, Jihl can show the footage from Euride and Sazh WOULD BE A BOSS BATTLE?! IDK.
Also, the thought of Vanille having her nightmares kinda made me snort a little, if she was planning on moving closer to Light.

I think Sazh would dissuade Hope from trying to kill Snow. He doesn't have any malice towards Snow, and it can't fuel the fire within Hope.

Oh gosh, I had my thoughts on what would happen to Vanille/Light, but...that's for LL to mention, not me. :)

Date: 2010-05-29 03:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
As for Sazh's motivation, probably try to keep it together. He always keeps it together until he turns himself in, in which case Jihl would "talk" to Hope. Ooh, and on the Palamecia, Jihl can show the footage from Euride and Sazh WOULD BE A BOSS BATTLE?!

I like this scenario. The epic angst and potential dark factor is through the roof, especially when you brought up Jihl and the Sahz!Boss.

Nyargh... *refrains desperately from plotting*

Date: 2010-05-29 04:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
BOSS BATTLE, GO!

This fic needs to be written too. X.X

OMG, what have I done?

Date: 2010-05-29 04:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
...I look at the pile of fics I need to finish and I cringe. But my brain still says 'oooh, shiny' to the 'wouldn't it be cool if...' style plotting.

*facepalm*

I want a boss battle with Ragnarok!Hope at the end, damnit.

Date: 2010-05-29 04:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
I think I need a tangible pile of my writing plate to kick my butt into gear properly.

But...what party member is left? Ragnarok!Fang?

Date: 2010-05-29 03:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
OKAY. PART TWO, BABY.

Lightning. The chick who makes every girl question her sexuality. She is just that badass and hot. I don’t know what Square thought they did, but they definitely didn’t transfer all of Lightning’s sexy to Fang. :3

Nice cover of the ‘personas’. They are rather contradictory, aren’t they? Given this huge amount of contradiction, she’s a complex and sometimes confusing character. The same woman who slugs Snow and takes on Sanctum, is the same woman who supports Hope and battles to find a way to save her sister. It’s interesting at it’s fun to speculate. What kind of factors result in more ‘Claire’? What kind of factors are more likely to get you gutted by ‘Lightning’?

I just realized I might want multiple personality disorder fic, damnit.

Exactly how far integrated the two personas are is a good question. I agree that both are entirely relevant – Lightning’s abandonment issues haven’t gone away, so she’ll keep that persona around to help her cope with this. It’s also mostly constructive and enables her to survive challenges.

Nice point with the balancing issue – I don’t see her getting there without some help, though.

Agreed on the abandonment issues, it’s kind of glaringly obvious why she resents Snow and cares for Serah and Hope so much.

On the shipping parts…

“Sister complex” – most definitely. -_-;

I like your thoughts on why Lightning would be attracted to Serah at all – unconditional love and regard from the person who she thinks knows her best. It’s an attractive notion. It’s what we all want.

Also nice thoughts on what it would take to get a relationship going between those two. Lightning’s misgivings and guilt would be so very her, as well. Once again, I thought that was the most epically portrayed in the original end of Sisterhood. You’ve mentioned that your past!fic for NaNo will be Sisterhood-verse. I guess that means I’ll be getting to see how you integrate those two scenarios? Initial acceptance, then guilt-ridden rejection?

Ffff, no wonder Serah latched onto Snow.

Snow: I also have difficulties believing they’d hit it off sexually. Normally I can see how ‘opposites attract’, but seeing this pairing is clearly beyond my imagination’s abilities. Just the level of contempt puts me off. Most of their interactions was either CONTEMPT or revolving around Serah. So I think both of those factors might have put me off from that ship.

Which is kind of funny. Back when Snow’s only name was Mr. 33cm, I was dead certain Lightning and 33cm would be an item. Wow, was that theory Jossed.

He's everything Light the soldier persona cannot stand in a human being. His beliefs and values are almost the opposite of hers, and she's supposed to give away her sister to him? Fat chance.

I loved this part. Just… word. Have some internet points.

Fang: Hm, we both know I like this ship, so I quite enjoyed reading your take on it. Woah, you involved real scales! :D *flails*

I admit it, I love the verbal banter the most. >_>

Yeah, ‘if’ Lightning would let her, and Lightning certainly wouldn’t be doing that consciously. I mean, Fang. While they share so much in common, they’re also very different – as you noted. Fang is arrogant, teasing, crude, snarky and smug – not exactly traits I see Lightning appreciating. She is very easy to get along with, though. Very charismatic. I think that the charisma and their similarities would be what kicks this relationship into gear.

I’ll let my WIP fics speak for me on my thoughts on this pairing (my prompts don’t count, not the same standard), when I post them. Buuuut you have given me more solid thoughts on the androgyny side of things, gender roles etc.

TO BE CONTINUED, because of that shitty character limit.

Date: 2010-05-29 04:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
Yes. She makes me question my sexuality. GODDAMMIT SHE'S A FICTIONAL CHARACTER. Woe.

...Are we really going to diagnose Lightning? LOL MPD sounds...I guess "correct". It's not like she's borderline because she's relatively stable in her moods. And Histronic doesn't sound like her either, unless you count the flips and shit she does during battle as "attention-seeking". As in...you can predict when she's gonna punch you if you say certain things...

As for persona integration, I like my cocoon analogy, but with a placenta between the two? IDK. It's so complex, and I don't want to compare it with pregnancy...do I?

YES AND YES on balancing/abandonment.

The more I think about it, the more the Sisterhood-verse WOULD work in "Hey Soul Sister". However, I will fudge the joining of GC thing. Actually I will change a lot, but the premise SHOULD be the same. And no, Lightning will not accept Serah's feelings. Although if and when she does, it'll be too late. But I will explore more of the sisters' relationships, and I already said I will tone down on the Farroncest. As for actually integrating the two scenarios...I'm not sure if I can pull that off exactly. Might have to get creative here.

Snow: It's so funny that people were already shipping them, and I was in my little corner shipping LV against my own will (C'mon the game didn't even come out in JAPAN yet).
YAY FOR INTERNET POINTS.

Fang: Besides Serah, I believe only Fang can make this a relationship of equals. They're both physically dominant, and of the same sex, so there's not really a double standard, even comparing to LV and LS. In this relationship, Fang has a very large chance of topping Light hard besides Serah, and Light would only let Vanille top, permission granted and stuff. The old "I don't want it, but my body says yes" kind of thing.

I love the verbal banter too, hence Part 9 of OT6 fic.

YES FOR GENDER ROLES. IT'S WHAT BEM WOULD'VE WANTED. PSYCHOLOGY IN MY FANDOM, WHATTT?

Edited Date: 2010-05-29 04:08 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-05-29 04:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
LOL. It's amazing how she and Fang managed to do this. Strong, sexy - *blood nose*

*ahem*

If I was going to diagnose Lightning, I'd need to spend a lot more time with the DSM than I do. :x

Besides, even if I did attempt it, I have my memories of ethics (three years running, yay) screaming in my mind that we really don't have enough information, and that I shouldn't do this because I'm untrained/unqualified.

WHATEVER BRAIN, SHE'S FICTIONAL. *facepalm*

...I have the sudden urge to write my own character analyses Freudian-style. Clearly, I've been awake too long if that's really seeming like a good idea.

I'm going to leave this analogy alone, since there's a reason I don't read preg/Mpreg/Fpreg stuff. Totally illogical and random squick for the lose - I don't shy from mental trauma, murder, rape, gore, torture, but make the MC of a fic pregnant and you've lost me. *laugh*

I wish December would hurry up and get here, I totally want to see your take on all this.

Yes, but... well, okay, you totally have me there. But you totally weren't alone in the L/V corner. ;p

Fang has a very large chance of topping Light hard

Do want. *innocent*

But seriously, agreed.

PSYCHOLOGY IN FANDOM. It's clearly more likely than you thought. ;p


Date: 2010-05-29 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
Yes, one can only hope the female characters will stay in this kind of trend. *swoon*

I have to read up on the DSM as well, and yes I know it's unethical, but dammit they're fictional characters! *huffs*
Oh no. OH YES FREUD. The lulz...dream interpretations, etc. I think I should stop here.

I didn't mean "pregnancy" literally, but I was kinda playing the whole mother and child archetypes while describing the soldier/mother personas Light seems to embody. Carl Jung would've loved me. :D

DUDEEEEEEE, I wanna see my own take on this. 8|

No I guess not, but there were slews of L/Mr.33 fics, and only a smattering of LV ones.

Hmm...I want too. FFFFFFF I can see it now...

Ugh. Psychology can be applied to anything and this is no different. 8|

Date: 2010-05-29 05:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
Here's to hoping we get another Faris, Celes, Lightning or Fang in FFXV. I'm kind of sick of the bishonen brigade, and unfortunately Versus XIII looks to be yaoi bait. I understand that yaoi-bait sells, Nomura, but I still hope to hell that you give us another Aqua in Stella, rather than another Kairi.

Because Aqua is friggin'epic.

Lol, exactly. They're fictional, ethics really shouldn't be playing a role at all. Especially considering what fandom generally does with characters, ahaha...

This is what too much ethical conditioning does!

Yeah, I got that part. ;p

Very true. Most fics were also High School AUs, which I avoid like the plague. Simply because often it's just an excuse to write the characters as OoC as they like.

Date: 2010-05-30 12:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
...OMG. FARIS, CELES, LIGHT AND FANG LOVE?! All is right in the world. Especially Faris/Lenna. I adore that pairing too. Nomura and his frickin' yaoi-troop. Although I guess this would make up for the lack of badass boys in FFXIII, hmm?

What we're doing to them is relatively tame, by fandom standards.

I hate High School AUs, unless it's done well. Generally, they are not. I feel like I should write one to break the mold/stereotype. 8|

Date: 2010-05-30 04:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
There needs to be more Faris love in general, haha. If they ever did a HD remake of FFV (lol unlikely) she was made to cause questions in sexuality in both sexes. *snigger*

Celes in HD? Please!

Screw a remake of VII, give me an HD remake of VI. Or at least Faris and Celes in the next Dissidia.

I've seen a few dubcon, but nothing majorly (explicitly and painfully) non-con yet, so you have a point. Also, no graphic torture yet, so another point to you.

There's a reason I don't go into the Kingdom Hearts or Final Fantasy X(-2) fanfic archives without explicit recs. It's just not worth my sanity finding 1) a non-AU fic; 2) a good non-AU fc; 3) a good non-AU fic that doesn't blatantly bash characters and pairings.

Lucky for me, one of my favourite authors puts out some fantastic KH (mostly FF gang) stuff very quickly, so it's not so bad if I want KH goodfic.

Date: 2010-05-30 05:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
I love me some cross-dressing pirate. ARGH!

Celes in HD?! With the Opera part? *DEAD* BRB, totally shipping the fuck out of Celes/Lightning

You know...I heard Sazh was gonna be in Dissidia. In place of Lightning. Now you know I love Sazh, but that shit ain't right. First of fucking all, there's barely any playable female characters. And how dare you Nomura, not include Lightning, because in the first one, you didn't want to limit her abilities, so what's your excuse this time? BITCHES GONNA BE CUT.

(goes back to character analyzing)

I don't read KH fic. I avoid it like the plague.

Date: 2010-05-30 05:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
Hurm. Okay, I'm going to say this right off the bat - I followed Dissidia's developments, translated interviews and updates since the day it was presented in beta version until... now. I still follow the metagame and keep an eye out for interviews c'mon Dissidia 2.

So in regards to the Sahz issue, lolno. That's not what it was about. Nomura was asked, if he could put any FFXIII character in, who would it be? Nomura said Sahz, because he was Nomura's favourite character.

That's like me saying that I want Faris in over Bartz. In a more official example, it's like Nomura wanting Kain over Cecil (or even Golbez). In the end, the Main Character vs. Antagonist format won out.

I do believe that they'll expand the roster a little in the next one, plus add in Lightning. Because Lightning was under heavy consideration. She's the image of the game and the first playable character. She's the anchor of the game and pulls it together.

In spite of FFXIII being quite ensemble, Sahz does not have this. Sahz was just a flippant remark that really shouldn't be given a lot of weight. There is a chance he'd get in, if the roster was expanded from the 2-per-game formula. But there is also a good chance we'd see Snow or Fang in there too.

*cough*

Uh, sorry about the rant.

Date: 2010-05-30 05:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
Oh good. I was about to flip a shit if it turned out to be true, because that would've been a Twilight Zone moment, if you passed the MC Light for Sazh. lolwhat?

Fave character I understand. (I might...have preferred Celes to be in. Just a little.)

Also...I'm in the middle of Vanille ships. Oh Maker, I don't think I'm going to sleep tonight.

Date: 2010-05-29 03:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com

Hope: Just want to say one thing. I love that you used ephebophilia rather than paedophilia.

I wish I could say more, but you’ve pretty much summed up my own feelings on the matter.

Vanille: I could almost see this relationship having a Squall/Rinoa dynamic – you’re the opposite to everything I thought I wanted, but somehow it’s happened. Or, alternatively, a Cloud/Aerith – you confuse and fascinate me on a level I don’t really understand.

Admittedly, I haven’t paid a lot of attention to this pairing, so my thoughts are pretty basic on this. I think it could definitely work, but you just have to show it happening. I’m not going to buy a fic that does this relationship out of the blue, with no build-up and no reasoning. After all, we’ve seen what happens when Lightning has big things sprung on her in times of stress. :B

I NEED TO SEE A LIGHT/VANILLE FIC WHERE FANG PRETENDS NOT TO APPROVE. Take that, Lightning! Bonus if Snow is in on Fang’s joke. *snigger*

Ah, one of these days I’ll write it, along with every other shiny idea I’ve ever had. >_>

I’ve mentioned my thoughts on Sahz before, and that he’d be a respected and stabilizing influence. So, I agree!

‘scuse any typos, I clearly can’t type at the best of times.

Date: 2010-05-29 04:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
Hope: It's not exactly pedo, although I guess in legal terms, he's still a minor and that's a no-no.
BESIDES IT'S A GREEK TRADITION AND LIGHT CAN EASILY BEAT THE GREATEST OF SPARTANS. LOL.

Vanille: Oh...I dunno how i felt with Squall/Rinoa. The Ragnarok scene...kinda came out of left field for me. Just a little. Cleris is a whole another issue, with Zack's memories coming into play. ALTHOUGH I DO LIKE THAT PARALLEL if Fang=Zack, but...alive, you see.
In this pairing there must be loads of build-up otherwise...it would be out of left field also.

I NEED THIS FIC LIKE...NOW. ;DDD

Sazh is teh shit. I concur.

Date: 2010-05-29 04:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
The definitions that I've read for paedo/ephebo sometimes overlap, and Hope's in that foggy area.

CONSIDER IT TRAINING, HOPE. That sounds like a number of prompts.

I think it's easier for me to believe the Squall/Rinoa stuff because she was always in my party, therefore it was easy to fill in the blanks with characterization. AND I basically did every optional cutscene between the two (and there were quite a few) that developed the relationship.

The bad part - this was optional.

Looking at the relationship from Cloud's perspective, not really Aerith's. I found Aerith's actions a little questionable.

I totally wish I could write this fic, but I'd have to do the groundwork with Lightning/Vanille first. ;_;

Date: 2010-05-29 11:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aznphoenixx.livejournal.com
Personally, if the person in question is going through puberty, I consider it ephebo. Hope's voice...sounds like it might crack any minute now. XD

Wow you can take that on so many levels, I don't even...

Funny thing is, Rinoa was always in my party just because of Angelo. I <3 Angelo, not her. LOL. I don't remember these optional cutscenes. I remember the place where you get Bahamut, the cactuar and tonberry missions. And abusing "draw" on those two islands.

Ahh, Cloud is awesome. I tried shipping Cleris, but I'm a Cloti fan, and I love Zack/Aerith instead. ;A;

Ahh, yes. Groundwork can be such a pain. I have enough collabs as is.

Date: 2010-05-30 04:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zerrat.livejournal.com
Hm, if I remember correctly, they're meant to be around Balamb Garden and Balamb town.

I have so much love for Jumbo Cactuar. The Islands of Heaven and Hell were the best places ever. More Aura and Ultima? Yes please.

I'm not terribly hung up on any FFVII pairings, though I have a soft spot for Cloud/Zack/Aerith. Cloud/Tifa is something that I respect as canon, don't particularly have any strong feelings on but still appreciate and enjoy the dynamics of it all.

But... yeah.

Dead!shipping for the win. I quite like Zack/Aerith as well.

Yeah, exactly. It'd be fun, but... I can't be fucked right now, haha.

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